72 Weeks

Daniel: Hello and welcome to the third episode of 72 Weeks. My name is Daniel and I�m the Head of Outreach and Communications here at New College, which is part of the University of Oxford. And this podcast is called 72 Weeks as that is the average length of an Undergraduate degree course at Oxford. Each episode, I will be talking to two people about how life can change, and indeed has changed, during that relatively short period of time. Each episode, the people interviewed will have a common thread, or indeed threads, that they share with the other person and this week I�m delighted to be joined by my colleague, Nigel, currently the Visitor Liaison Officer at New College
Nigel: Hello
Daniel: Hello Nigel. And Gabriel, current French and Philosophy Undergraduate at New College, Oxford
Gabriel: Hello, hello, hello
Daniel: Hello Gabriel. And the thing that brings them together is that both are members of the LGBTQ+ community here in Oxford.
Gabriel: Well done Dan, you got it there.
Daniel: Thank you. OK, so, um, let�s talk about New College first of all. Um, Nigel, we�ll start with you. You�ve worked at New College for many years. Um, can you tell me about your history here? What sort of things have you done at New College?
Nigel: My work history here started on January 3rd 2004, where I was invited to come and work in the Buttery by, um, someone that I met working in a nightclub in Oxford. I started in the Buttery and in two to three years, became the Assistant Catering Services Manager, and I added the bit �Butler to the Warden�, um for fourteen years, when I was diagnosed with osteoporosis when I was 55. Um, and I had a new ankle, foot, and calf-fusion surgery. So, I was retired, um, when I was 55. And about, three, six months later, um, there was a call from the Human Resources Offices saying �we�d wonder if you�d consider working back here again�. And I didn�t really want to, I was getting bored, but I didn�t really want to but I knew it was a friendly community that I wanted to be a part of really, still. Um, and so I said yes and I was offered a role in the Visitor Liaison Office, working for Mrs Paula Hart.
Daniel: And what sort of things do you do there now?
Nigel: I do deal with all sorts of things. So, um, you might get some people that have booked a tour of the College. Um, and they want to be shown around and given some history. Or, I might have a VIP that needs to be greeted at the gate and taken to the archive and then into lunch with a Fellow, member of the College. Or, I have to control groups of children from around the world, in groups of up to twenty, so that they behave and respect the property that they�re within. And, they preferably go away with something learned.
Daniel: And Gabriel, you�re nearing the end of your first year in College now, just a couple of weeks away. Um, how has it been?
Gabriel: Yeah, so, um, I guess I�m a lot newer to the New College community than Nigel, as you said I�m just heading to the end of my first year and I had some expectations. And, to be honest, being at New College has very much, um, not only hit those expectations but really, like, exceeded expectations. Like, people think Oxford is, like you know, there�s a kind of aura of �oh, all they do is work hard and all they do is they�re in the library until twelve�, and I was like, �Oh God, I�m excited but am I going to have, like, no life when I�m here? But, no, it�s been absolutely amazing. The people that I�ve met, and the things that I�ve done. I never would have thought that I would have done.
Daniel: And how are you feeling about your upcoming exams?
Gabriel: Oh God, don�t say that! This is, kind of, a little break from my exams. So, I�ve got what�s called Prelims exams which, uh, which are kind of exams that first years do at the end of their year which allows them to carry on to second year. So, it�s kind of, you know, not too stressful but at the same time you want to do well in them. Uh, so I�ve got mine in actually a week�s time actually, it�s definitely getting tough, definitely a lot more hours going in than usual but, um, yeah, it�s nothing that I haven�t experienced before.
Daniel: Think of the long Summer that you�ve got coming up.
Gabriel: Exactly, yeah.
Daniel: Um, and you mentioned there that you�ve enjoyed your first year at New College but what�s your favourite thing about the College then?
Gabriel: I think it�s always clich� to be, like, �oh, I love the people� but that�s the best thing about the College. That�s definitely something I�ve noticed about the New College community. There�s so many great people here, it�s not just the students. Like, I absolutely, like love my tutors, um, I absolutely just love the people like the members of staff that work here. I�m really fortunate to get to work with loads of members of staff, being like a Step-Up Ambassador so, Dan, I work with you on outreach. But also, like, for example the people at the Buttery, for example, the people that serve you the food, like, they�re great, basically besties.
Daniel: And would you say, Nigel, that College has changed in the time that you�ve worked there? And, if so, how?
Nigel: Oh, yes, I mean there�s a famous saying I always say to myself �you�re welcome, New College, um, it hasn�t changed, welcome back�. However, it changes termly, it changes yearly. But there�s a common thread between the Fellows, and the Warden, down to the Pot Wash, to the gardeners, if you�re not friendly then you don�t tend to stick. And, that�s at any level. Whether you�re pot-washing, like I said, or if you�re academicy, or anything, socially, there�s something about your own personal nature that makes you feel part of a community and a family of New College.
Daniel: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Um, and let�s go back then, pre-New College. Um, so Nigel, can you tell us a little bit about where you�re originally from, and what you did after leaving school. And, your journey to New College.
Nigel: Stop me if I ramble, Dan! Um, gosh, let�s do it very, as quickly, as possible. Um, I was born in 1963 to a single woman. I was adopted by two lovely people, uh, in South East London in a little place called Eltham. Uh, and I just got on with growing up, which wasn�t easy. Um, so I studied. Well, I went to normal Infant School and Junior School, uh, my Mother and my family were serious advocates of the local Methodist Church. My Grandmother was a serious, I�d almost say an academic religious sort of person, um, and I grew up with reading publicly, I grew up with singing in the choir two or three times a week, um, that was your social. Um, swimming on a Monday, Scouts on a Tuesday, we were kept very busy as children. And very strict. Uh, encouraged to read a lot, and just be interested in things, and engaged in things. Um, I passed my eleven plus with flying colours, I was in the A stream at the age of eleven. Um, but I started looking at older men in the choir. Things, I knew, were changing in me. And so, I started losing interest in my academic stuff but it, because for me, it sounds arrogant but it was just so easy for me. It was just, quite, A this, A minus that, A that, A this, A minus that. It was just boring. So, this physical change in me was taking over. And, eventually it culminated into bullying at the same school, I dropped a grade down to the Bs, and B2, and uh, being bullied, and I just became, um, suicidal and not wanting to be alive because I was brought up in an environment where you�re ill if you�re gay. And, I didn�t want to be ill, I didn�t want to be gay, I didn�t like looking at my same-sex people. But, it was happening, there was no avoiding it. Um, so, my parents decided to put me on courses of electrotherapy and psychological help I suppose, I think they were doing, but to correct me or to stop me from being in context like they said at the time, of being ill. I didn�t want to be ill either, um, but the only joy that I had then was singing and performing, which I was good at, I could just immerse myself into somebody else and be on stage doing something, giving something to somebody, helping somebody, uh, until my parents decided that through the, basically social services, that I should be put into a private school in Northamptonshire, uh, where again, there was only nine in my class, and we were in dormitories of boys of six, four, eight, and twelve, and they put me in this dormitory with twelve other boys, and I discovered that there�s other boys like me. And, I left to go back home to London and so I was put into a, what do you call it, Youth Hostel in Sidcup for three, four weeks when I felt like there was no way I was going to live in this place. I wasn�t going to be on the street. I was earning �17 a week, and the rent was �17.50 so I had to get out of the whole situation. So, I moved to Central London and just auditioned for every show that I could so I sung, danced, waited on tables, at Talk of the Town, to the opening of Chess, to oh gosh, all sorts of things. Um, uh, and just had a bit of a naughty life and realised that there�s clubs for people like me, clubs that actually had little slots on doors, and they had to see if you looked gay enough to come in because it was still very secretive. I remember being in a nightclub called Scandals in Wardour Street, and there was police raids, there was skinhead raids, even you know, in 1979, you had to be very careful even in Central London about being open about being yourself. So, that�s my sort of growing up stage.
Daniel: Well, Gabriel, how does that compare with your upbringing? Because, things have obviously changed, I would hope, dramatically, in that time.
Gabriel: I think, definitely, like when it comes to external factors, it�s definitely changed a lot, like, uh, I never felt like I couldn�t be who I was. I think there were definitely times when it was difficult and I thought like I maybe wanted to change who I was a little bit, but there were never points where I completely felt too isolated because, you know, I had a strong friendship group. And even before, like, I knew that I was something, my friends were saying things like �oh yeah, like Gabriel, you know when you get a girlfriend, like you know, with a little nudge, you get a boyfriend, you�re definitely going to tell us�. Like �yeah, yeah, yeah�, �no, no, no, I�d never get a boyfriend, what do you mean? What do you mean? I�m completely straight�. Obviously, they knew before I did so when it came to telling them, it was like, �oh, well, fair enough�. Like, I was never too worried about it with, like, all my friends and teachers in school, like, there was, when it got to like, about Year 8 and 9 when I came out as bisexual, there�d been representations of LGBT people on, like, TV and stuff like that. But, I think for me, it was very difficult, um, because I come from a background where, like, my family are Catholic and I grew up going to Church every Sunday. I went to, like, Sunday School and it was very much like more of an internal difficulty trying to be, like, oh my goodness, these two lives that are really important to me don�t seem to be compatible. In the end, the biggest worry was, like, am I going to go to Hell? Like, are my parents going to hate me? Like, are my parents going to disown me? Am I going to have to find something else, you know.
Nigel: So how long did you feel the pressure of, um, feeling you had to perhaps change your internal self?
Gabriel: This was years. Right until, like, even after, like, I came out to my parents. Like, this was like, years after this because, like, I didn�t know how they would react. Um, and then in the end, they reacted, like, they reacted fine.
Nigel: Phew
Gabriel: Like, it wasn�t like the best reaction I could have gone for, in terms of like, what I thought it would have been, it was actually a lot better. Looking back on it, it could have been a lot better but like now, especially my Mum who, like, I absolutely adore. I absolutely love my Mum. She�s probably one of my biggest supporters now so, if Mum, when I tell you about this Podcast, you�ll listen to this. Hello.
Nigel: Hi Mum!
Gabriel: Hahahaha. I would definitely say, like, she�s supported me, like, the whole way, she�s like loved me unconditionally and, uh, I think it�s these types of things that have really really helped me realise I don�t need to change myself for, like, anyone. Not for like other people, not for my religion, not for my parents, because, like, in the end my Mum�s shown me, and like all my friends have shown me, and even now at University, like, you can be who you want and no one cares.
Nigel: It was only about a year ago, my sister said to me, �Nigel, are you happy?� And I said, yes, yes I am. I�m really happy now. I�m comfortable. I really don�t care any more what people think. I don�t feel I have to conform. I don�t feel ill. I feel happy. And I�m so glad that this is becoming easier for anybody that comes under any letter, or bannered generalisation, or pigeon hole. Um, yeah, I�m just so relieved for you all. You don�t realise it was easy, uh, difficult, when I was younger, like seriously difficult, when you hear other peoples� stories. Um, it�s not so different for people in my age group to have very similar stories, but none of that �pity me� stuff anymore. It�s like, well you know, it�s shaped me, I think it�s made me more friendly, it�s made me want people to be more accepting of me as a person. I demanded that people accept me and that has made me successful. So, I�m glad it�s easier for younger people because I didn�t start being happy with myself, about mid thirties maybe, after running a business in the Cotswolds and I�m just so glad it�s a lot easier for everybody to find happiness in themselves. That�s not for everybody though, because they�ve still got these internal pressures I think for themselves to be accepted. And you can�t tell someone that they have to feel like that, they can only find that, I think. I don�t know how you feel Gabriel about that? You have to be happy with yourself.
Daniel: Gabriel, you mentioned there, it was almost easier to come out because of things on television, um, potential role models from the LGBTQ+ community, so what sort of things did help you when you were growing up?
Gabriel: Yeah, and I do think it is just that representation was so important because, like I guess um, I�m very fortunate in the fact that I never had to learn the hard way about it, I didn�t get overly bullied and stuff, it was all, like you said, knowing that there�s this representation on TV. I think that was a big factor in me, like, realising, like that I don�t need to make this any big of a deal. It�s just like, I don�t go round telling my friends that, oh by the way like, I have dark hair, you know, because I�m Asian. Like, I don�t need to do that.
Nigel: A lot of people wish for world peace. I just wish that everyone would just stop questioning and trying to categorise everything all of the time. Why? It�s in our nature to put things, oh yes, that�s black, that�s white, that�s green, that�s yellow, that�s all sorts of things. But I just somehow wish we could retrain, at a very early age, to not put things into boxes. Cos, you know, I�m fed up, even dare I say this, and this might sound like I�m promoting but I�m fed up with the letters LGBTQI, again, I�m put in a box. So, I just wish we had one letter, and I�m going to get this in Dan, that we had one letter, H, for Human.
Daniel: And, I suppose on that, on the weekend was Oxford Pride and Nigel, I know you were instrumental in setting up Pride in Oxford and Gabriel you attended your first ever Pride on the weekend, so, how was that?
Gabriel: Pride was an absolutely amazing experience, um, as you said Dan, you know, this was my first Pride event, this was my first Pride march. And that was mostly never because I didn�t want to but mostly because I come from a fairly small town in Cambridgeshire. So, it was just never, coming from a small town like �a�, there just weren�t many LGBT people, and �b�, there just wasn�t enough people to just, like, have a Pride event and stuff. So, being able to take part in this, um, definitely meant a lot to me. Realising, you know, especially growing up, you would think from a small town there would be maybe two or three non-straight people, um, and especially when you�re at that age and people weren�t coming out, it was, it did feel isolating but just bringing this whole community together and being, like, �wow, there�s other people in Oxfordshire, and just like generally in the world, that are just like me�
Nigel: Who will just accept you however you are.
Gabriel: Exactly. And these people are doing it, like, so unashamedly. Like, and hearing your story Nigel, it makes me so happy how far we�ve come as a community. We are here, we�re queer, we�re happy, you know.
Nigel: Dam right!
Gabriel: We�re celebrating, this isn�t something that we�re ashamed of. We don�t think it�s an illness, we are just who we are. Like, you know.
Nigel: I think there�s something, you know, again being happy with yourself. Finding your individuality and wherever it sits. And, I shouldn�t use bad language, blow those that don�t accept you who you are because you don�t want those idiots around you anyway. I�m just relieved that you can be happy. I mean, I did feel, um, I�m talking about going back, oh gosh, even in the early Pride days in London, uh, that you would put yourself out there, we had eggs thrown at us, abuse. I remember the banners, you know, all the slogans you know as you were marching from, like, Hyde Park down to Piccadilly, with helicopters and the Police lined the road and there I was in pink leather shorts, slamming tequilas down the throat outside the Ritz, and just being able to scream out loud about my sexuality. Now, I find you don�t have to scream about your sexuality. It�s a possibility with any human around you. You know, why do you have to declare it? And, people you know, say oh thanks for the older generation for the work you�ve done, well I didn�t see it as work, I found it as almost like a necessity to have to do some of those things we�ve done. And I just hope, and I�m getting too tired now to be on organisation committees and things, I�ll leave it to the thirty-year olds, they know what they�re doing a bit more, they�ve got more energy. That sounds a bit dismissive but they�ve got the energy and the drive and the current view of politics and the situation around sexuality and issues.
Daniel: Um, and if we talk about Oxford a bit more, what�s the social life like for a young person in Oxford at the moment?
Gabriel: The gay scene! And I�m just using gay as a kind of umbrella term because that�s just how, colloquially, I�ve always said it. The gay scene at Oxford is actually so fun. Like, there are so many gay people in Oxford. That�s something, like, not only me and Nigel and have been talking about but, like me and my friends, it feels so safe, it feels like such a community.
Nigel: What I do know, I think because it�s Oxford, because of its academic diversity as well, I quite feel it�s cosmopolitan everywhere.
Gabriel: Yeah, I think it�s because, I guess at Oxford I feel there�s less of a kind of need to even outwardly be like we are a LGBT friendly place, because like Oxford, the atmosphere at Oxford is just like actually quite welcoming, quite broad, we�re quite a diverse community.
Nigel: Because when I, my partner and I of 36 years, moved to Oxfordshire in 1994. So, we bought a business in a village, maybe a village similar in size to the one you grew up in Gabriel. And uh, I changed my name from my family name, Turner, to Ewers so that, and we made a story up, um, to say that I was half-brothers, so the village wouldn�t throw eggs at our door. Um, and it took about two to three years, so this was 94, of us still hiding, yeah, where we didn�t want the village knowing. Um, and I think it was the people that lived in a very big house with very liberal views came in �we all know you�re gay� and suddenly the walls went down, and the place became very successful because, again, of the chemistry of the village.
Daniel: And you mentioned your partner, um Keith, there. And you were one of the first same-sex couples to have their marriage blessed in New College.
Nigel: Well, I just asked the question and outrageously said Keith and I got married, or we thought we were getting married in the year 2000, and we thought that we had to use this bit of paper, this certificate from this Priest had given us would be enough to put into the government so that when we could legally marry, because we knew it was on the way, that it would be enough to get a certificate. It wasn�t. So, I happened to be working very juniorly at New College and I�d like to be blessed in the Chapel, and go on to the registry and get married, and it came to light that, um, it was the second couple in there. I thought that it being Oxford, and maybe even New College, that we�d be way down the line with that because it was way after the time that you legally could, I think. But it became apparent that if Keith and I didn�t make a legal commitment to one another, that um, my family would have rights over me that my partner wouldn�t and we�ve been together for 30 odd years, and it was like, no, we�ve got to sort this. And, it was great fun, and I�m so pleased and proud that I did it there. Because I�ve seen other things go on in that Chapel, and I�m like �oh, that�s beautiful�. You know, when you see a young baby, or a couple comes back after ten years to get married and I know them. And it�s just a, I wouldn�t say I believed in God in the sense of Church, or a man with a white beard in a big stone chair, but I definitely believe in the spirituality and the community of a Chapel. And that�s what that has been to me, and why I�d find it difficult to leave here, given the choice. Sorry, I�m rambling again.
Daniel: No, it�s so interesting. And I hope what we�ve talked about there suggests that we do live in a more tolerant society nowadays, um, than we used to. Um, but more can be done all the time. So Gabriel, as a young person, what more can be done to support people?
Gabriel: Yeah, so I think that�s quite a nuanced question. I think because, like, whoever you ask, they�re all going to have very very different answers, because everyone�s had very very different life experiences. Um, but I think for me, it was very much again this whole big thing of representation.
Nigel: I agree with you there, Gabriel. If we see more of it, not shoved in peoples� faces, but subtle imagery of things, it just becomes the norm. But, um, what I�d like to see is more same-sex couples with their children, however they�ve come into the world. Because everybody has this ounce of parenting love to give, you know, I think having children either makes the best of you or the worst of you. And I think there�s a lot of people that are being excluded from that. So, you want the imagery change, just that Gabriel?
Gabriel: There�s definitely also very concrete things that also really need changing. Um, and I think, now this is just my views completely, and um, I think that we very much, we need to move away from the individual and social and move to wider-scale changes that actually affect big masses. Like, I think now, if you know, my generation, if, I feel like I don�t need to say anything about my sexuality. I feel like that�s not a big thing. And even if I did, you know, they would welcome me with open arms, or even they would just treat me the same way as they did, which is absolutely amazing. Um, but the thing is, I think there�s a lot of, there�s definitely a lot of performative actions made around LGBT issues, and they are serious issues, because, you know, worldwide, not everyone has, you know, the privilege like us that, you know, we can, it�s so sad that we have to call it a privilege but the privilege of just being ourselves. Um, and there�s massive companies that think that, um, every June on Pride month, they can slap rainbows on their logos and be like �yeah, we support, you know, we stand by all the gay people, and whatever you are, we�ll support you. And I think that in a very social community, kind of the Western social communities, yes that�s the case. A lot of communities will support you. But then at the same time, they�re doing that whilst donating millions of pounds to politicians that are allowing things like electrotherapy to carry on, that are allowing, you know, transgender, that are allowing transgender children to feel like they�re sick as if they need to have conversion and stuff. Um, so I think, we�re definitely holding these massive corporations and governments accountable and not just this whole wishy-washy �like, oh yeah, let�s support the LGBT community by putting a flag on once a month�.
Nigel: Yeah, and give them 10% of our revenue for something else.
Gabriel: Yeah, exactly.
Nigel: It�s not good enough!
Daniel: Nigel, as someone who�s seen a lot of students come and go, uh, during your time at New College. What one piece of advice would you give to Gabriel to ensure that he makes the most of his relatively short period of time at New College?
Nigel: Well, I understand that it takes a lot of work to get to apply here. And, you�ve got to have, like Gabriel was saying, this passion, bit of a spark about it. Uh, but it�s not your all. Um, there are other things. Gabriel, luckily, he hinted upon it earlier, it�s just there�s so much here to explore. And you�re only here for three years, well to put that correctly, three lots of 24 weeks. So, try things while you�re a student here. Because it�s all here somewhere, in some little corner of Oxford, you will find something to fit into to divert your attention, whether that�s a six-foot blonde with a moustache and a torso like I don�t know who, or someone who likes having ant-races on a Sunday morning with a full English breakfast. You know, just find yourself while you are here as well because it will become your identity later.
Daniel: And, with those sage words, um, I�m going to say a big thank you to Nigel and to Gabriel, um, for speaking so honestly and openly this afternoon. So, thank you very much to both of you.